Good Idea, So So Product, Terrible Service.

It is a good idea for your RV to have some sort of shore power test and protection device, an Energy Management System (EMS).  A device that checks to see if a pedestal is wired correctly, that power frequency and voltage are within reasonable bounds so devices in your RV aren’t damaged.  I chose a particular brand of EMS and have installed three of them in different RV’s in the family.  I chose the same model – a built-in model as I didn’t want to mess with one that hangs off a power pedestal (and has to be locked to keep it from being stolen). Also with the built-in model, the display can be remotely mounted, inside the RV.

In our travels, these EMS units have warned us several times against miswired power pedestals.  They have also cut power when campground power was too low to be running air conditioners and the like.  And when they are operating, the display gives us the comfort of knowing our power condition and load we are placing on then shore connection.  Great, right?

As with so many products today – they work until they don’t and then EVERYTHING comes down to customer service.

And customer service with this particular company just plain sucks.  [Company name withheld temporarily]

When I first installed my unit – it would freak out when I plugged in my generator.  I contacted tech support and they refused to diagnose “because I was using a generator”.  Not because I was using some crappy generator that didn’t supply a decent power waveform, but simply because I was using a generator.  I knew this generator supplied a clean power waveform – but I pulled out my oscilloscope and checked – yes, very clean sine wave.  So they must not trust their product to operate or self-diagnose if power isn’t perfect.  Wait – did I just say that?  An EMS needs to operate under the most severe conditions – at least enough to refuse to connect power and indicate an error condition.

What was worse with mine was the unit was NOT acting in a reasonable manner.  The relay was buzzing, indicating the control board was in some sort of loop, unable to come to a stable state.

So, no help from tech support.  I checked EVERYTHING.  What I found was the shore power connector on the side of my RV did not have the RV side wires fully screwed down.  Thanks, Forest River.  The screw was touching, but not making a good connection.  I tightened everything properly, put it all back together and the EMS was perfectly happy running on the generator.   We used this EMS for several months worth of camping.  I installed the same EMS in another RV that put about 6 months camping on it – both happy customers.  Then I traded in my RV for another – and installed yet a third EMS that I’ve put a couple of months on as well – still a happy camper, one bad experience with tech support notwithstanding.

So, why am I bitching?  The second unit failed.  While boondocking in the middle of no-where.  While using the generator.  I’m sure you can see what is coming.  The owner called tech support only to be told – “Generator?  Nope, call us back when you get on real power.”

That was going to be days in coming.  Via a terrible cell phone connection, I talked them through some tests and a procedure to bypass power around the EMS so they could continue to use the generator.

Days later when they were finally able to get to a campground with power, they called tech support again – meter in hand to diagnose the problem.  The tech asked them to check power on the box incoming side – then outgoing and verified – nope, the box isn’t passing power.  Then tech had them check the ohm reading on the relay energizing coil.  Just over 2 ohms – sounds to me like the energizing coil is good.  No questions about the status of the LED on the control board. The tech asked if the display was showing anything – and was told no – so he knew it was dead.  The LED is off, indicating the control board has no power.  The display is dead, indicating the control board isn’t operating.  So the tech’s conclusion – “you need a new relay”.  Now, these people are on the move.  They spend only a few days in any location, so they will have to arrange for the item to be shipped to some fixed address they can access.  When it gets there, they will have to install the relay themselves.  And when the EMS doesn’t work – this stupid dance will start all over again. I don’t know the warranty state on that unit, they’ll probably be charged for the relay they don’t need.  They managed to convince customer service to send them both a control board and a relay.

Perhaps, just perhaps, this unit uses some twisted logic of a circuit that uses the energizing coil as part of the power supply to the control board.  I can’t imagine why someone would do that, or why a tech would ignore a dead board and jump to the conclusion that the relay is bad.  It just makes NO SENSE, though if I’m wrong – wouldn’t it be great if tech support would actually explain?

But the story doesn’t end there.  I wrote Tech Support myself to try to explain the situation – and all they could do was write me back and tell me to go to their web page and file a warranty claim.  That’s it.  No interaction.  No telling me I was right or wrong.  No telling me to mind my own business – just go file a claim.  It is almost as if noone read my mail and some robot was bouncing me.   I get it a little.  Tech support people have to deal with all kinds of customers – some who clearly think they know more than tech support.  I sometimes have to request that first line support people escalate an issue to someone at a higher level so they can take me seriously.   And I know, I’m not always right.  But I do believe when I buy a product, I have a right to have a conversation with someone who actually reads what I write or listens to what I say and not a droid that just fires back stupid canned messages.  I’m not the kind of person that has to be told – “make sure your PC is turned on”.  I’m an electrical engineer for god’s sake.

No matter how this episode turns out – I will NEVER buy their products again.  Nor will I rest until I convince at least TEN other people NOT to buy their products.

Oh, and they replaced the control board and the EMS magically came to life.  No new relay needed.

And so it begins again….

We are fixing up our Forest River, Sunseeker Class C.  Is it broken? You ask.  Well sort of.  Isn’t it new? you ask….  Well yes it is. Doesn’t Forest River make a quality product?  Says so in their glossies.  Nope.   Its been broken since the day it was put together.  No it was broken the day some Forest River designer/planner finished the specifications.

Our dash radio sucked.  It was a new Pioneer unit.  Probably a model that Pioneer couldn’t move off the shelves and Forest River got a good price on.  Besides having a clunky interface – it had an annoying habit of connecting to my wife’s phone and playing music any time the van was started.  She wanted Bluetooth to work for phone calls but didn’t want the music starting up at in-opportune times.

The radio was also set up to be the Rear Camera and Turn Camera monitor.  The rear view mirror on a class C is useless for seeing what is behind – so having a full time rear view camera is useful and an important safety tool. So we had the radio configured to show the camera full time.  When we hit a turn signal – the  view switched to the side camera.  Those cameras by the way were junk.  But that part worked.  When the turn signal went off though, the video would switch back to the rear camera for 1/2 a second, then switch to the radio primary view for 5 seconds, then most of the time, switch to the rear view again.  When it didn’t switch back, a manual walk through the menues was required to bring it back.

Also when in rear view mode, no radio functions, including the clock were visible – and if you wanted to go wade through stations – there was no rear view.

Oh, and the sound quality sucked.  That was in part at least, the cheap speakers Ford or Forest River installed.

So, we bought a new radio and XMradio receiver and speakers and tore the dash apart.  While we were there, we installed a compass, outside temp gauge, and additional cigarette lighter port and USB charger.  And a CB radio(down on the engine bump).

In order to access wiring, I needed to pull the plastic panel under the steering wheel in front of the driver’s knees.  It is held in with four clips – two on top, two on bottom.  I noticed the two clips on the bottom were NOT plugged into their spots.  When I pulled the panel down this is what I found.  Crimp on

wiring mess for Radio/video
Forest River average wiring

connectors going to crimp on connectors going to fuses going to wires that ran everywhere.  What this picture doesn’t show is the wire coiled up and shoved up into the dash and the video switcher also up higher under the dash.  The reason the panel wasn’t clipped in was that there was too much wire and crimp connectors in the way.

So I tried working with this mess, but eventually decided to just fix it up right.  All power was being drawn from a 8 or 10 gauge wire run to that spot by Ford that went to a 50 AMP fuse up in the main fuse box.  Yes, 50 amp.  So some circuits that were connected in had their own fuses, as they should.  Some didn’t.  When you run a 16 gauge or even smaller away from a wire that big on a fuse that big, you HAVE to put in a fuse because that small wire may not be able to blow the 50 amp fuse if shorted to ground and thus would turn into a really long toaster element.

I purchased a 6 slot fuse panel and ran everything through it.  All wires were soldered and shrink tubed. connection ends were crimped and soldered and screwed into the fuse panel.

But I wasn’t done.  I needed to run the CB antenna coax out through the wire path from the driver kick panel through the door and out by the mirror as we were mounting the antenna behind the left rear view mirror.  To get access to that path, I needed to remove the cover for the hood release – and to remove that, I needed to pull up the cover on the driver side entry step.  The first thing I noticed was it was loose – and it came up way too easy.   The picture to the left is what I found.  A bunch of loose wire with zero attempt to corral it into the channels so it wouldn’t be crushed between the step and metal frame.  I cleaned it up, and wire tied into the channels.  The image on the right shows the rear view camera wire crushed in two places and somehow, part of the insulation burned off in a third.  Oh, and the step normally has 5 clips holding it in place – three of them were broken off.   It took me only a few minutes to clean up the wiring and restrain it into the channels with a few tie-wraps.  And just a little care and the step clips wouldn’t have been broken.  The step needs to be repaired or replaced as it flaps loose and rides up higher than it is supposed to be – meaning someone could catch a shoe on it, getting into the van.  I also ran video for the rear view and power up the left side to the rear view mirror area, where I put the Rear Videw Monitor as well as the Dashcam.

Inside bed box.
Inside Bed box showing flexible pipe, wiring for slide.

Moving on.  Forest River decided that the left side of the main bed didn’t need any power.  No A/C, No 12V DC.  Nothing.  For the first trip, I ran two extension cords from the right side of the bed behind the mattress.  So, I stand the mattress up and take the screws off the two pieces of plywood covering the bed box.  Because the bed box is part of the slide – there were a number of arrangements under there to handle water, grey sewer and power.   So the first thing I noticed was – there as NO reason not to have run power to the left side.  Right there is a 120 V A/C junction box less than three feet away. Also – the white wires are DC power runs to various parts of the slide, including the 12 V and USB ports on the bed’s right side.  Easy, Peasey, right?

So, I get an electrical box, GFCI plug, DC cigarette lighter and USB charger port  and install them into the space below the left bed shelf.  It’s not all that convenient, but it works and is out of the way.  Its not that I need to plug and unplug stuff all that often.  I ran the AC line over to the junction box attached to the slide, added a cable clamp and used proper sized wire nuts to add the connection into the existing wire.  

I also used some nail-in clamps to lock down the wire.  Half done.  I created a DC line to run over and connect into the DC wires going to the slide.  When I started separating the wires – A  CRIMP FELL OFF!!!  sigh….   Over and over again, I find these crimps either LOOSE – or when the wires are shoved in – they aren’t properly twisted so half or more of the wire strands bunch up at the bottom of the crimp and never get crimped.  Yes, it makes connection but also creates a resistive spot – that will heat up first if there is a heavy load on that line.

 

I get the impression from examining the outside of the crimps – that they are using regular pliers to do their crimps.  If they were using your average electrical crimpers, there would be marks.  The outside just shows a flattened crimp, nothing more.  I found THREE loose connectors in the wires under the bed.  Other things I found while I was down there?  The AC lines are in a flex conduit – which is supposed to reach all the way into the junction box.  That line came up out of the floor – couldn’t bre moved so I could only tape it up.

 

Where grey waste pipe exited through the floor – only two thirds of the gap around the pipe was sealed with foam.  I grabbed a can of foam spray and sealed it up proper.  A quick test of AC and DC ports, some tie-wraps to neaten things up and one last task. The under bed storage – a piece of plywood on a hinge cover the storage.  The problem is to open it, one has to lift the mattress with one hand, then try to wedge your finger tips under the edge of the plywood to pry it up.  Then stand there while someone else actually accesses the storage area.  Its a real pain.  Mod 1, was to take some nylon webbing and screw a couple of loops into the underside of the plywood.  This at least will make it easier to get a hold of the wood.  Mod 2 will be to install a couple of spring pistons to help hold the plywood up once it is open.  I have a pair but ran out of time to get them installed.

This crimp thing seems to be systematic.  The odd thing is the AC connections were well made.  Perhaps they have to have someone different do AC circuits and DC circuits can be done by whomever walks in the door.  Now I feel like I need to pull the power panel and most every other cover hiding connections and check them for loose crimps.

Way to go Forest River.  Poor quality as usual.  Next up – the trim over the front cab bunk is coming loose.

 

 

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